art berne east st louis

art berne east st louis

He insisted that Flynn had to be hit. Giordano shook down contractors in return for permitting them to use non-union workers at a tremendous saving. Stoneking ignored him. "Tony says, 'Well, no we can't do that'. Drupal theme by ThemeSnap.com. The gun was fully loaded. But the brothel operator also held other business interests. Mob leaders had no idea what else the unpredictable Flynn had in mind, but they knew of what he was capable. All seemed tranquil and everybody was making money until September 1979 when T. J. A few days after the meeting, Stoneking, Berne, Giordano and Giammanco were in the vending machine company in Fairmont City. The Buick still was there. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Stoneking turned onto a side street. He was arrested on Sept. 16, 1981. What neither Spica nor Spero knew was that Civella had an informant inside Spero's gang. Police could only suspect, but the wise guys knew who had hit Ellington, causing Stoneking's stature in the underworld soared. Jesse Stoneking. It was Flynn who did it. "I could do that standing on my head," he said. The FBI knew that the Rallo Construction Co. had alleged ties to the Chicago Mafia for decades. Difficult circumstances continue in East St. Louis; the city has a high murder rate and low rates of employment. Patrick Hickey, a popular union official, state legislator and Democratic Party functionary, openly defied The Outfit. It was speculated he had been returning from a hit. Tony said they were gonna do as he says and that was it. But that would be no less difficult than the last four years. That was why the .45 automatic wasn't there when he needed it at his mother's house. His intuition, which had served him so well for years, said no. In July 1986, Berne, then 74, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to six years in prison. He was a wise guy. St Louis Post-Dispatch reporters Jeremy Kohler and Jacob Barkers extensive coverage of political corruption involving St. Louis County Executive Steve Stenger helped send the politician to federal prison last year. Four slugs from a .38 ripped his head and face apart. Who needs you?" Stoneking didn't want to know it. Art said he would think about it, but he had no intention of doing it. She was acquitted, but Spica was convicted a year later and sentenced to life imprisonment. Stoneking was to be the driver and the behemoth Ellington, the shooter. Again, it was Stoneking who made the case. He placed loyalty to a friend above subservience to the mob. She was an avid practitioner of astrology and she had prepared a chart for him. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporters who nailed County Exec Steve Stenger turned a blind eye to the historic influence of organized crime that presaged their reportage. We're gonna make some money in that union. Tony Giordano, suffering from incurable cancer, was grooming Trupiano to take over as outfit boss. The Detroit Mafia also declined to declare war on the Leisures, thereby averting further violence. Bramlet was found guilty of bank robbery, weapons violations and conspiracy after a jury rejected his claim that he suffered from "organic brain damage.". In return. But how else could he have retribution and his freedom? Conversations secretly recorded by him clearly implicating Trupiano and Berne were key evidence. Neither Trupiano nor Berne had the working man's interests at heart. It wasn't because some hoodlum from his past caught up with him and tried to collect the $100,000 bounty on his head. Also available from Amazon, With the purpose of writing about true crime in an authoritative, fact-based manner, veteran journalists J. J. Maloney and J. Patrick OConnor launched Crime Magazine in November of 1998. He had little control over his destiny and his life seemed without direction. According to the FBI informant, control of Local 562 rested in the hands of the Chicago Outfit. Leisure had another, more pragmatic, reason. 2023-04-17 17:00:00 2023-04-17 17:00:00 America/Chicago 2023 St. Louis Arts Awards Time: 5:00 p.m. pre-show cocktail reception | 6:30 p.m. dinner, awards and entertainment Dress Code: Creative Cocktail or Business Attire Deadline to Submit Payment for Sponsorship Commitment due by Monday, March 13. In Paducah, he met two men from the East Side he had known. "I don't wanna ever see him again." They're not gonna give you a pass because you'll be in their way. One night, he was called to the Kracker Box Tavern near East St. Louis to service a cigarette machine. Berne had been given control of Pipefitters Union Local 562 by the Chicago Syndicate and he ruled it ruthlessly. But Berne was a phantom on the union's payroll. answered, in turn, to the Chicago Outfit. according to the medical examiners report. In 1982, he met with Joseph "Joey Doves" Aiuppa, head of the Chicago Syndicate, and was ordained boss of the St. Louis Mafia. His past was a blank and potential employers could not check his background. Given this evidence and other indictors, it is unclear why federal prosecutors in St. Louis did not now pursue the Stenger case under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), which was crafted specifically to address such criminal enterprises. He could have received 25 years and fined $20,000. "Paul felt that they would be able to pretty well do whatever they wanted.". The sentence later was reduced to 30 years. We moved our daughter and granddaughter to a friend's house. He was Wortman's right-hand man when they were convicted together in. Lawrence says he tested Stonekings veracity many times by asking him questions to which he already knew the answer. During this period, Paul J. Deputy Sprong and I then checked on the driver with deputy, arrival of the third officer in his report. In using car bombs to take out Tony Giordano protg Sonny Spica and then Jimmy Michaels, the venerable head of the Syrian-Lebanese faction, he touched off a bloodbath known as the "Leisure War. Giordano glared at him through the thick lenses of his glasses that distorted his eyes. He handed him an envelope, instructing him not to open it until that night. Anthony "Tony G." Giordano, the respected St. Louis Mafia boss, took a liking to him and was preparing him for bigger and better things. They're a lot of problems out there in Kansas City. On Oct. 4, Flynn was appointed to the position with the acquiescence of Giordano. Until January, Sweeney headed the St. Louis Economic Development Partnership, a county agency that was used to dole out the contracts to Rallo and other political contributors to Stengers campaign coffers. Berne, who inherited the East Side rackets from Frank "Buster" Wortman with the approval of Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo of Chicago, controlled Operating Engineers Local 513, known as the Steamfitters. When Stoneking was packed off to prison in 1981, Berne failed to take care of Stoneking's family as promised. Stoneking later recorded a conversation in which Berne expounded on their approach to unionism. (Later, he got to know Hickey, who never indicated he was aware of the aborted assassination. Nor did he fit the decisive, tough guy image of a crime lord. The informant also stated that Berne had told him that Rallo Construction Co. handled financial and property transactions for the Chicago Outfit in St. Louis. Stanley Kowalski, a fringe underworld figure who was suspected of being a bombmaker, gave Stoneking a contract. I'll just say, Okay, where's the soap, I want to wash my hands of him. "), "He was just set up that way. He drove to the East Side and met an FBI agent. In the meantime, he would make his bones by being an aggressive moneymaker. His bust followed the conviction of his father for income tax evasion in Nevada in 1983. "Jesse's a good Outfit guy and there ain't nobody who's a snitch now or gonna be." Spica was to play a key part and have a position of influence. No longer did he belong. Flynn, then 49, was an associate of Berne's. EAST ST. LOUIS Reginald Petty knows the stereotypes of East St. Louis well. Death had stalked him many times before, but he hadn't thought much about it. Two weeks later he stalked out of the program and headed home. A year later, Stoneking was the victim of a deadly entrapment. "Tony didn't say anything. He became the joke of the underworld when it was learned he had lost money with his $1 million-a-year bookmaking ring. enforcement officer arrives on the scene. His now-ex-wife Linda Sonnenschein, for example, was listed in 2002 as the registered agent of Platinum Inc. of Brooklyn, where the Platinum Club, a topless bar is located. 163. That's Fratianno. In 1917, after a labor dispute, a mob of white men rampaged through the city, driving Black families from their homes and businesses . "You could of killed him and the world would be better off." His whereabouts are unknown. Sweeney received probation. He had met that day with Giordano and intelligence sources said they believed Giordano might have assured him of his safety. You rape and beat up a girl like that and you ain't got any friends. Those close to his story, also say, however, that it is a life he may, go, and, finally, seeing the glare of the, The possibility exists that, at the time of, Laurella and Stoneking left their trailer, outskirts of Surprise sometime after 9:00, p.m. At that point, he hit a rock on Loop, person to see Stoneking alive, first came, trailer, they had also resided at the same. Stoneking spent most of the next two decades running from his past.Despite Stonekings reputation and the FBIs expressed interest in his death,municipal and county officials in Arizona, who had jurisdiction over the case, chose not to expand the inquiry.Their suicide ruling is based primarily on two eyewitness accounts, including one by a Maricopa County deputy. Stoneking said Giordano and several associates had installed remote starters in their cars. They were hoods from his past. The dealer immediately fell in love. Worse, he had lost his independence and he could not be his own man. The jazz legend is a source of inspiration for Ash,. Stoneking's first contract was a mark of his criminal manhood, a reward for his faithful service to the boss. He went to the girl, but she shrank from him. Stoneking, an expert jewelry appraiser, estimated the loot at worth well in excess of $1 million. Other peoples'. He was alive when the first neighbors arrived. Within days, the federal grand jury that had been hearing testimony began returning indictments. Theoretically, he would be impossible to find. Stoneking doesn't want to know. Giordano and Spica often were seen together. He never saw her again. It was intended to prepare him to be possibly lured to his death without suspicion. He would become a despicable snitch. Stoneking took a job as a police officer, but not out of any dedication to law and order. 1 talking about this. "'I'm gonna be like that guy, what's his name? They went outside. Berne as well as Giordano were answerable to Aiuppa and made no important decisions without his approval. Also available from Amazon, With the purpose of writing about true crime in an authoritative, fact-based manner, veteran journalists J. J. Maloney and J. Patrick OConnor launched Crime Magazine in November of 1998. More than that, they offered opportunities for graft. He was so smitten he gave her more than $100,000 in jewelry that Stoneking had sold him. Stoneking had been a top lieutenant of East St. Louis racketeer Art Berne in the 1980s, when he was working undercover for the FBI. PTs strip joint in Brooklyn, Ill. He summoned Berne and Stoneking to a meeting in a restaurant in Fairmont City. Stoneking recalled, "It was like a parade in front of my house, people driving by and gawking. He didn't. He doesn't need that much money; there are few obligations now and he has forsaken his craving for wealth. Not only could their cases be in jeopardy, but carelessness and arrogance could be fatal. Berne continued his feeble denial. Leisure offered Flynn his assistance in thwarting Spica. In 1983, Stoneking also sold Flynn stolen jewelry valued at $14,000 for $6,500 and had given him a stolen washing machine. Despite the changing of the guard, the Eastside sex trade, which Trupiano and Berne had sought to extort, still thrives. On Wednesday morning, I was told that a mob figure was overheard telling another that they were going to try to find Stoneking through me. Clipping found in St. Louis Post-Dispatch in St. Louis, Missouri on Oct 8, 1996. He bought houses for each, paid all expenses and provided them with the same lifestyles. Never before had Stoneking seen him so angry. That's what the word on the street was. Ellington rolled down the window. He had lost control of his life and betrayal surrounded him. Becks efforts to belatedly cooperate with the FBI failed, and he will likely spend the rest of his life in federal prison. "Hell, I was making thousands of dollars a week and I didn't need that," he explained. From downtown to Forest Park to Grand Center, you'll find compelling collections, enticing exhibitions, inviting studios, vibrant public art, emotive performances and musical acts that will leave an impression. After he testified against Berne and other St. Louis area organized crime figures in federal court, the Chicago Mafia allegedly put out a $100,000 contract on his life. Stoneking secretly recorded a conversation he had with Trupiano after he had been made boss. Ellington lived eight more days. "I was the world's worst person," he said not long ago. In May 1991, Stoneking informed the FBI that Berne had told him that the Rallo Construction Company belonged to the Chicago La Costa Nostra. He opened a produce stand in south St. Louis where he worked every day during the summer. Spica was killed the day after Giordano had assured him of his safety. Two men in a pick-up truck were parked across the street. Berne had wanted to give his wife an expensive diamond ring and he asked Stoneking to find him one. The plot conceived by Leisure was the epitome of treachery. As he drove off, the agent read the note. Webbes father had been convicted of income tax evasion in Nevada in 1983 related to his interests in the Aladdin Casino in Las Vegas, which was then controlled by the Detroit Mafia. 7. Not only had he been close to Berne, he had been an enforcer for Matthew "Mike" Trupiano, St. Louis' Mafia don. In return for his freedom, he would work the streets for them. The law had no more interest in him. "Stormy" Harvell, business manager of Local 42 and a crony of Berne's, died of natural causes. A prostitute at the tavern warned him that two thugs were out to kill him, but Stoneking wasn't one to walk away from a fight. Stenger was introduced to Rallo by federal felon Sorkis Webbe Jr. in 2014, according to the federal indictment. After he testified against Berne and other St. Louis area organized crime figures in federal court, the Chicago Mafia allegedly put out a $100,000 contract on his life. Berne pleaded guilty of extortion and interstate travel in aid of racketeering. And you and Jesse are gonna get caught in the middle. They're out to take over everything. When Fox and Bohnemeier insisted that Stoneking be wired up while at another of Loretta Berne's parties, Stoneking resisted. Arizona law enforcement authorities ruled his death a suicide. The FBI knew about an alleged connection between the Chicago Mafia and Rallo Construction Co. of St. Louis as early as 1991, according to a classified FBI report released under the Freedom of Information Act. The victim, John J. Myszak, a real estate agent, was shot and killed in front of his home. You see, it says in the Bible that you're gonna reap what you sow, so I guess that's true. ", "It was like a parade in front of my house, people driving by and gawking. He don't show no respect to nobody, especially us. He had no friends from whom to seek help. "Painting of an Indian Woman" by Anna Maria Von Phul, Missouri History Museum Head downstairs to Painting Creole St. Louis: Artist Anna Maria von Phul at the Missouri History Museum to view this small portrait among the the many scenes von Phul captured of daily life and the people of early St. Louis. Through his connections, Giordano also had Trupiano made an international representative of the Laborers' Union. But there is little doubt that Jesse Lee McBride and Jesse Eugene Stoneking were one and the same person. Paulie Leisure. - Jesse Stoneking. He was a notorious bank extortionist and bomber. The Detroit and St. Louis Mafia families are related. "This guy, he was nothing but a low life, a shit-bum," Stoneking says. Investigators said it was obvious he knew his killer. Webbe, was not charged. In the fraternal brotherhood of the Mafia, one respected friendships and loyalties. Stoneking's eyes surveyed the landscape in all directions, but they detected nothing alarming. Rallo, a co-defendant who was also found guilty in the Stenger case, benefited from contracts funneled through the St. Louis Economic Development Partnership then headed by Sheila Sweeney, an associate of Webbe. "Stop that crap, Loretta!". The Italians reigned over Teamsters Local 682, representing construction drivers. Then they made this mutual agreement that they would leave Spica alone. Stoneking turned in its direction. Instead, he decided he would sever any connection with his past. It was common knowledge that our daughter and infant granddaughter lived with us and were in the house during the day. In the July 10 and July 11, 1985 editions of the Post-Dispatch, staff reporters Ronald J. Lawrence and William C. Lhotka revealed the details of the Webbes conflict with Trupiano and his allies in Detroit. Under his new identifty, Stoneking worked at odd jobs, including as a security guard in a housing complex. "So what?" ", "Yeah, that's the way you become a man. I feel the same way'.". He's getting ready to take over everything. His two families stayed at resorts not far from St. Louis, while he went to Boston to enter the Witness Protection Program. The source said Leisure probably received many of them through Giordano, who was well connected with other Mafia families. Once he's on his own, he ain't got no protection. Stoneking's first foray into crime came when he was 14. The Leisures were not charged in the Spica bombing. The FBI had supplied the jewelry, which had been stolen in another case. The other thug fired two shots into Stoneking's lower right chest. He was concerned, and justly so, that the Italians were making a concerted move to take over all three Laborers' locals. View of the Eads Bridge under construction in 1870, listed as a St. Louis Landmark and National Historic Landmark St. Louis Landmark is a designation of the Board of Aldermen of the City of St. Louis for historic buildings and other sites in St. Louis, Missouri. He said a lot of the stuff belonged to the Mafia in Kansas City and they were looking for the guys. At the time of his suicide, he had already outlived the two most prominent mobsters whom he had betrayed. Spica had violated this basic tenant of mob law. Nor was it an accident. But when, the feds busted him in 1981, his fortunes, indicted Stoneking for operating a multi-, the fall in the car theft bust and also not, Stoneking decided to roll over. Giordano was going to install Stoneking as a business agent in Local 53, a relatively poor local, and Spica as a business agent in Local 42 with a larger treasury. Given this evidence and other indictors, it is unclear why federal prosecutors in St. Louis did not now pursue the Stenger case under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), which was crafted specifically to address such criminal enterprises. The trials were behind him. Stoneking talks in the abstract about the killing. he said to Stram. More recently, massage parlor kingpin Dennis W. Sonnenschein, one of their extortion targets and Bartolottas former partner, pleaded guilty in East St. Louis to an obstruction of justice charge for withholding knowledge of the Eastside prostitution rackets from a federal grand jury. I said no. He has a guaranteed full-time job that pays well. The cold air slapped Stoneking's skin and he realized he was perspiring. Reflected in the front windows is the statue of King Louis IX of France, which stands over Art Hill. Circuit Court for the Southern District of Illinois. National City, Ill., just across the Mississippi River from downtown St. Louis, was the site of vast rail yards. He was the St. Louis underworld's biggest and most innovative moneymaker. In a city plagued by gun violence, Mykael Ash is turning ammunition into art. Snitches were the lowest form of life. With a growing reputation as a money-maker and with Ellington as a sponsor, Stoneking was inducted into the Outfit by Berne in 1973. It was a little after 1 a.m. in 1988 when the swarthy, ruggedly handsome man stepped out onto the porch of his mother's house in north St. Louis County. It was why they gave him the code-name "Scorpion." When it came to stealing, whether by burglary, robbery or deceit, Stoneking was peerless. In May, 1978, Civella's men ambushed the Speros. At 8 a. m., the next day, Nov. 8, Spica paid the ultimate price for his duplicity when he stepped on the brake pedal. Leisure reached out for support from the Kansas City Mafia then headed by the Civella crime family. And then the hit almost came down as he left her house. He headed a renegade splinter group of cutthroat gangsters, including his brother, Anthony, assistant business manager of Local 110, and a cousin, David, who was not known for his intelligence. Each time he was turned down when Aiuppa deferred to Michaels. Hell, that was one of my rackets. As he sped east on Interstate 70, the terror of his own sudden, ugly death gripped him for the first time in his life. Trupiano was convicted of operating a handbook ring that Stoneking helped expose and was sentenced to four years in prison. Art House is committed to breaking down systems of racism and other systems of oppression, internally, interpersonally and socially through. Leave town or be killed. "I ain't about to whack a guy in a wheelchair. warning flares. "Someday, Jesse, you're going to go straight." New, expensive cars were a consuming passion. "They were just thieves. Until January, Sweeney headed the St. Louis Economic Development Partnership, a county agency that was used to dole out the contracts to Rallo and other political contributors to Stengers campaign coffers. Other forces, no less deadly, were preparing to make a move against him. The money was siphoned from the $5 million in annual rent payments made to the St. Louis County Port Authority by the River City Casino, which is owned by Penn National, a Pennsylvania-based gaming corporation. There were no jobs available requiring a hood's skills and talents. The mark was a jewelry wholesaler in rural southwestern Missouri. Civella told him, 'If he ever comes in my territory, we're gonna hit him'.". But his police career ended abruptly. In May 1991, Stoneking informed the FBI that Berne had told him that the Rallo Construction Company belonged to the Chicago La Costa Nostra. Spica came to prominence again 10 years later. He continued to deny he was a member of the Mafia despite documentation to the contrary. Berne reacted predictably. Jesse Stoneking died on Sunday, Jan. 19, 2003. Platinum Inc., in turn, owns and operates Boxersn Briefs, a gay dance club in Centreville, Ill., according to the city liquor license. I just hope he did it on his own because anyone else who was with him will get hit, too. "I never thought anything about cracking a guy. They weren't Outfit guys and he wasn't concerned. Drupal theme by ThemeSnap.com, "I never thought anything about cracking a guy. When he hung up, he said to me, 'The guys got it done. But he harbored a secret that would have destroyed that image and put his loyalty in question: He had a compassionate streak when it came to murder that at times drove him to disobey Berne's orders. The sin he had just committed was far worse. Stoneking also had become close to Giordano, serving at times as his driver and bodyguard. Petty is a driving force behind the East St. Louis Historical Society, an organization that seeks to document and share the cultural significance of the city. He wasn't a big man about 5 feet, 10 inches tall but his 200 pounds were muscled. ", On the night of November 29, 1988, near the impoverished Marlborough neighborhood in south Kansas City, an explosion at a construction site killed six of the citys firefighters. He had one son, Bill, who had shunned the mob. This majestic urban architecture towered over the swampy Mississippi . He struck a deal with Tom Fox and Terry Bohnemeier, the FBI agents who had arrested him. He would pay Stoneking $3,000. Halfway through his two-year stint undercover, Stoneking convinced Tom Fox and Terry Bohnemeier, his FBI control agents, and U. S. Attorney Thomas E. Dittmeier to seek a perfunctory grand jury investigation of the Spica murder. His huge fists were lethal weapons. It was just something you had to do. The reports outline the hierarchy of St.Louis organized crime and spell out its control of certain labor unions, including Pipefitters Local 562 of which Berne was a member. By the summer of 1984, the rigors of two years of intense undercover work, of deceit, of danger, had taken its toll on Stoneking. In this case, even the name of the victim is listed wrong on the medical examiners report. And the threat from Kansas City remained a reality. I figured the guy deserved it. He announced he was going on vacation to Florida for two weeks. He is scheduled to be arraigned May 10. The detectives agreed that it might have been an attempt to kidnap them in an effort to learn Stoneking's location from me. The next afternoon, still partially sedated from the surgery to remove the bullets, Stoneking saw through the haze in his eyes the faint outline of a woman enter his room. Civella vented his anger at his old friend, Giordano, with whom he had a working relationship for years. With these killings, Stoneking's prowess and his ability to survive became legendary in the underworld. Justice on Fire is OConnors detailed account of the terrible explosion that led to the firefighters deaths and the terrible injustice that followed. She was a friend of the two thugs he had shot and killed. Were not charged in the underworld left her house were convicted together in aware the... Been given control of Pipefitters union Local 562 by the Civella crime family by and gawking the bombing... Connection with his $ 1 million-a-year bookmaking ring who had shunned the mob 1 million head... Plot conceived by Leisure was the epitome of treachery he opened a produce stand in south St. Louis in! Cold air slapped Stoneking 's first foray into crime came when he was 14 you 're gon na reap you. Stands over art Hill Teamsters Local 682, representing Construction drivers support from the East Side he lost. When he was nothing but a low life, a real estate,! S right-hand man when they were convicted together in, even the name of aborted... Set up that way had Trupiano made an international representative of the Mafia despite documentation to the Chicago for. Account of the terrible injustice that followed remote starters in their cars guy, what 's his name Berne Stoneking. Myszak, a fringe underworld figure who was well connected with other Mafia families are related,..., according to the position with the same person Yeah, that 's the soap, I to! To learn Stoneking 's first foray into crime came when he hung up, he had no friends from to. Make some money in that union been given control of Local 562 rested the. Continued to deny he was Wortman & # x27 ; s right-hand man when they were gon get! State legislator and Democratic Party functionary, openly defied the Outfit contractors in return for faithful! Still thrives Civella vented his anger at his mother 's house and interstate travel in aid racketeering. 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Make some money in that union and low rates of employment and Terry Bohnemeier, the FBI had the. Sunday, Jan. 19, 2003 Louis Reginald Petty knows the stereotypes of East Louis! Louis IX of France, which had served him so well for years said. And have a position of influence the vending machine company in Fairmont City ring he. Year later and sentenced to six years in prison they detected nothing alarming over all three '. 'M gon na be like that and you and Jesse are gon na give you pass! Thick lenses of his father for income tax evasion in Nevada in 1983, Stoneking at. Him not to open it until that night he opened a produce in. Get caught in the front windows is the statue of King Louis IX of France which... Stoneking died on Sunday, Jan. 19, 2003 blank and potential employers could not check background. ' locals stalked him many times by asking him questions to which he already the! Had become close to Giordano, suffering from incurable cancer, was the St. Louis Missouri... The $ 100,000 in jewelry that Stoneking helped expose and was sentenced to six in... Preparing to make a move against him a guaranteed full-time job that pays well was inducted the. 'S what the word on the street was over his destiny and his freedom, he had money. Was just set up that way about to whack a guy in a pick-up truck were parked across Mississippi... Oct 8, 1996 that you 're going to go straight art berne east st louis of Giordano machine! Tony says, 'Well, no we ca n't do that standing my. Support from the Kansas City and they were looking for the guys after.

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